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On the North American forums the user Andruski made this very innovative thread on how to both improve the the tech research and to tie it better with diplomacy (trading techs) and espionage (stealing techs). Have a look:

 

http://forum.masteroforion.com/index.php?/topic/1233-lets-talk-about-tech/

 

"With Espionage around the corner, I personally don't believe there's much point to it with tech in its current state; since you are going to get it nearly all of it on your own anyway. True, there can be other applications of spies, but I always felt that their primary role was stealing tech. 

 

I think it's generally agreed on that the tech tree needs some work, the good news is it's also apparent that the devs are indeed working on it.

 

To me, here's some points i'd like addressed about the tech tree (I think all these points have been mentioned elsewhere):

• Tech is acquired too quickly - redesigning a ship 4 times before its ever built feels silly, but also there's no sense of accomplishment when we finish a tech.
• (some people feel) There are too few techs - Self explanatory, though it seems to me that they wouldn't both expand the number AND slow down research, since we'll never see the end of the tree.
• Tech is pretty linear - I'm not making any large decisions across the tree as a whole, no need to commit to one path at the cost to another (also because we get it too quickly)
• There are too few split decisions (e.g. deep core mine vs core waste dump) - what is it? 12 choices? Most of them are not really choices at all.
• You get every tech that isn't a split decision - The equivalent of the 'creative' trait in Moo2, where you get all the applications listed in a tech, instead of only picking one. (I believe this also marginalizes espionage since you already have all the techs, you can only steal something you were probably about to research anyway; as opposed to getting the 'one you had to leave behind' in a decision)

 

So, since I do not expect the game to totally redesign its approach to tech (to be like the moo1 or 2 systems), my thoughts here are how do we improve the current system, with possibly the added bonus of regaining the feel of either the moo1/2 systems? 

 

1. My first thought was to just make every application in a tech to be a tech in itself, But this would more than double the number of techs and maybe make research feel a little too tedious. Plus it would lose that little feeling of researching a field of science, to just researching that better gun.  

 

2. My second thought was to just make every tech be a decision between its applications, like the dozen either/or decisions we have now, just make all of them that way. The nice thing is that the game already has the system for it, so it should be relatively easy. The bad thing would be that some techs that may be mandatory would now be missed (though I suspect with diplomacy, espionage and even tech from conquest it may be perfectly manageable) 

 

3. Then I got thinking what if the tree was categorized into different areas (This is a very MoO thing after all: Moo1 techs divided into Computers, Construction, Force Fields, Planetology, Propulsion, and Weapons; Moo2 used Construction, Chemistry, Computers, Physics, Power, Sociology, Biology, Force Fields). So what if the current tree simply had rows for different fields and techs could fall into different fields, and perhaps different races could gain bonus % when researching something in their field of expertise (Sakkra with biology for example, Meklars with industry or computers, while psilons get all of them). I am not proposing an entirely different system, just a deeper layer to the current system.  It would obviously take some rearranging. Here's a sketch of what I mean (the random colors being the different science fields, though obviously no correlation to the actual techs from the screenshot): 

 

This could have the extra benefit of a totally optional game type where players choose to research a field of science rather than a specific tech, and regain the feel of that Moo1 research (Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri did this. instead of the tree, you could research using the various fields and randomly getting what would've been available within that field at your current point in the tree). alternatively an 'uncreative' race could have to decide via science field and hope for the best, while other races can pick techs

 

I really do like this idea, but understand that its a bit more extreme than the previous two, so i'll dial it back a little (though I do think this could work along with my next idea) :

 

---

 

My current hybrid idea is a little of 1 & 2 from the above (though I hope #3 fits too): What if every tech was a decision for its applications (like the current system for the dozen split-choices) - but, you could then re-research the field (possibly at a reduced cost) to gain the other tech(s) you missed? So re-researching is like further developing a scientific field after the initial discovery was made. 

 

Now, I am able to get every tech I feel is mandatory, but in the process, will have numerous techs I skipped over. Some of them might not matter to me, but others would've been a real cost to leave behind. I am able to get them, but the cost is time. If I take that time, another race might not, and could be rushing for a better weapon to crush me while I am still in the sci-fi stone age. If I am unwilling to spend that time, I can engage in diplomacy or steal it with spies. No matter which method I use to get it though, gaining that tech was a lot more interesting thanks to the decisions I needed to make.

 

Interesting side effects:

• a 'creative' race (e.g. psilons) could still get all of the applications in one go (depending on the cost of re-researching tech, that may be rather OP. if so, then perhaps they get an appropriate % of the science needed for the other applications to speed up their research)
• an 'uncreative' race (e.g. klackons) might not be able to choose which application at all, and gets a random one. (or alternatively, can choose, but cannot go back to re-research)
• If balanced right, every race will hopefully make entirely different decisions, making them very different from each other, yet still viable in their own way.
• things like finding a tech from an artifacts planet (which I hope gets added), or gaining a tech from an event would be more manageable since it would be just one of the applications instead of a whole tech 

 

So basically,

• many important decisions would need to be made in the tree
• more time would need to be spent if you cant live without something
• There will be holes in your techs that you can fill via diplomacy/spies/conquest
• other races will have entirely different tech combinations than you (making them feel more unique; some races may have entirely different playstyles and approaches to victory as a result)
• tech will come slower than it does currently, since you will occasionally stop to further develop something 
• if we wanted to, we could also include #3 and have races with a bonus in various categories"

Edited by Mikko_M, 13 April 2016 - 07:36 PM.

I agree this would significantly improve the tech system. I would still like more special race techs that gets available depending on what race choices you have got. Like the uber planet choices.

I have read this through in detail now and I really like it. Normal races get to pick a tech from the research and can research the rest, Creative races get to pick a tech from the research and get 50% off the cost of developing the rest, Uncreative races get to pick a tech from the research, but cannot research the rest. That would sit best with me imo. If you make uncreative totally random tech from the list, no one will use it I think.

 

Whether this is feasible I don't know, we would have to ask the devs. It would mean when you research a tech, that tech is considered unlocked, so you can research further up the tech tree. But you can also go back into it and research the other options, which maybe take 50% as a first guess of the cost as the original tech.

 

As for pacing, I think they said they are working on this, to give us the options of slow, medium , fast. It takes on average about 20-30 turns to build a battleship when you unlock them. So the aim is therefore to keep upgraded weapon and shield tech, about 20-30 turns apart in the mid game. So your new ship does not need upgrading in the middle of production. It is about 3-6 turns per research at the moment. So starting at point A, new weapon , then better weapon point B, should be on average 20-30 turns away for the average research output you have when at the battleship level of the tech tree. Is this what you are thinking on research speed? :-)

 

I don't think it is so bad with the non-military tech coming thick and fast, but the military tech, which ends up on your structures and ships feels like an achievement, so it should come slower?

 

I really strongly feel we need race specific techs to compliment race specific diplomacy. Otherwise with a set research tree that therefore has a near optimum path, research strategy becomes uniform. For OP games, players who want a level playing field can disable race research. Those who want an immersive RPG/ Strategy experience on single player can leave it on. Whilst all races having access to the main tech tree, means there is a counter to any race techs species may have. For example, Mrrshan might get a cheaper battleship earlier on, say around the time other gets cruisers, but it might cost more command points to balance this out. So nothing that makes one race the only reason to play this, but each having a crown jewel as a reason to build a specific strategy around them. 

 

Then you have another route you can go down, that makes rare elements on planets of strategic value. For example, some techs become accessible early by controlling an element mine, for example, Diamond Laser if you control a planet with Diamond deposits. This might be on the sixth level tech tree, but becomes available at 25% cost as soon as you control Diamond Deposit.

 

Ideas like that can push individual unique strategies that are different each game. Taking the above example, as I know I can get to the 6th level of tech early if I control planet X, then I push computers to get my advanced lasers to hit and my whole strategy warps around my advantage. Conversely, my opponent may control a different element, giving them access to Class 5 Shields or Hard Shields many turns early, so their whole strategy warps towards shield capacitors and weapons better in a long drawn out fight. Again you could turn elements off, if players don't like them.

 

 

From a realistic standpoint, seeing how much stuff needs to be done, and how much of that is more important than the research overhaul, Such as AI, diplomacy and tactical battle improvements, I do not think that the developers should or actually could do large changes in the research system.

 

What Should they do is rebalance and relocate some techs.

 

First off making a lot of split techs with decisions isn't a really good idea, Other than not making much sense, balancing the whole thing is impossible. You will have plenty of techs when choosing isn't actually choosing, just always taking the clearly better thing.

 

What needs to be done is making the current decisions meaningful.

 

Such as do not make me choose between bombs and engines, They do the same thing. They save time. Bombs in the case of planetary assault and engines in the case of traveling. But since traveling is way more common than planetary sieges I have to always choose the engines.

Or in the case of Reinforced hull vs Heavy Armor. Well reinforced hull is just always a safe bet, It just gives plain HP. While Heavy Armor only gives resilience for the hull, bit since I have no idea what that does or how much of it does, It is a riskier stuff to pick, because It can be incredibly situational.

Same with Fighters and Battle pods, like I have no idea whether sacrificing 10 missiles on a cruiser or larger ship actually worth the immense advantage what battle pods give you.

 

So More information about stuff is definitely needed.

 

Replace some choices.

For example, instead of bombs vs engines, make it between Reinforced Hull & Heavy Armor vs Class III shields, so I can decide whether I want stronger shields or stronger hulls.

In which case the hull setup spares me mass on the ships, but costs 2 equipment space and the ships will need more repair after each battle, since They take more hull damage, while the shield does not take equipment space but costs mass points on the ship and reduces after battle repairs. In this note I also must mention that the Auto-Repair is kind of OP, both in battle and after battle. I think slightly reducing battle repair and after battle repair heavily to around 15-20% would be much better, since It would enable harassing tactics both in and out of battles.

 

Also, make choices like Mass Driver vs Fusion Beam.

Do I want a shield negating, point defense weapon that is good all around but has rather bad DPS or Do I want a really strong weapon with high DPS, which has shorter range, no PD and weak against shields.

Make choices between niche weapons and stuff, like Do I want missiles or torpedoes? Beams or Blasters? 

 

Rebalance some choices like Orbital Shipyard vs Moon Laboratory, I think the ML's plus 6 science is just better straight up. 

 

You do not need to overhaul the whole things, just simply balance it out.

I would say, the capacity of the devs to make changes is unknown at this time. Maybe they have time to develop research and I think it is logical we should assume they do until we are told otherwise. I think practically everyone agrees that if we are in a limited resources situation and we cannot know for certain that we are, then AI improvements first, then tactical combat, then diplomacy , then others as the priorities once the next batch of races and spying are added. Within the overall aim of making the game a unique experience each time. They did also say that they won't release the game until they are 100% happy with it, so we may have many phases of early access and I am quite content with that, in fact I like it, as each time they add new features and the game has improved on each occasion. I am really looking forward to early access 3.

 

Hmmm, I have to say I am in the opposite boat on important tech choices, I like them. Shipyard Vs Laboratory is a great example of this - it hurts to pick Laboratory, but I usually do. I then try to trade Shipyards off the AI. But there have been occasions where Shipyard has made more sense to me, for example, if I am in an early war.

 

I do agree that the choices need to be more meaningful, most are so easy to choose as you say :-)