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Tactical Combat - a HUGE disappointment


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pr0filer #21 Posted 03 March 2016 - 02:49 PM

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Just an Idea,

 

As a huge Moo2 fan, i was like a lot of the early access players here also dissapointed at the missing turn based tactical battles. I am still hopefull that in next releases we will see this feature back in the game.

Having sad this, i still see a lot of oppertunities for the current "replay"  / combat as a cutscene feature. 

Wouldnt it be a great feature to save the outcome of a tactical battle, so at a later stage you could sit back and enjoy some epic battles ? 

 



Deathstalker206 #22 Posted 03 March 2016 - 07:54 PM

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total war series?

View PostAsghaad, on 01 March 2016 - 01:08 PM, said:

all i can say is that i totally agree with what is being sayd - real time combat in otherwise turn based game just throws a wrench into is uniformity - and MOO is the turn based game foremost, meaning that players that HATE real time strategies are forced into something they hate and why they are playing the turn based game in the first place.

 

personally i think the tactical combat is a bit of a let down too, (then again i was born after the Moo2 days and have only played gal civ (no combat at all just a cinematic simulation) Stardrive 1 (amazing realtime 4x) and stardrive 2 (basically this game without warp lanes and better ship customization))

 

i think ship health and shields should pretty much get a 300% buff so combat lasts longer, PD weapons need to be reworked so they fire at more than just 1 missile (seriously my titan has 6 batteries of 15 PD masdrivers and you shoot down 1 missle!?!?!?!) and ecm needs a buff. i am fine with missiles packing a huge punch but they should be much easier to take down. (they are also OP in simulation as PD isn't accounted for at all as far as i can tell)

 

 

 



Smilyx85 #23 Posted 04 March 2016 - 12:37 PM

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View PostVanyel_, on 29 February 2016 - 05:19 PM, said:

Without turn-based tactical combat this game can achieve at most a 75% rating from me. I've already alerted all of my friends, after my early access experience, and they've all decided to not purchase the game. Strange, it seems that not only I myself but all of my friends who played moo2 also *all* belong to the 10% who thinks tactical turn-based combat is a major feature....

 

Me and everyone of my friends who played that game belong to those "10 %" too. What a coincidence!

psychollek #24 Posted 04 March 2016 - 01:56 PM

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I don't use the tactical option - although I would like to see some advanced AI battles - even without manual override it would be pleasent to watch. 
The problem with turn based combat is that it would take quite a bit of time - and if it would make much difference - then you would either have to play it or the game would have been that much harder.

The problem with rts approach is that if it would change anything significant you would again have to play it, and I don't want to :P.



ultimatox #25 Posted 04 March 2016 - 02:45 PM

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I for one actually think the new combat system shows lots of potential. The good ol' MOO2 combat wasnt without fault. for instance it being turn based being the one that got to take their turn first was a huge advantage especially in the later game. Also it scaled poorly. Having too many ships became a huge chore, which led people to not bother using frigates and explorers. This new system allows for a broader fleet mix, and a more fair system than turn based can be. Also huge fleets without battle slowing down to a crawl

 

Give us some better tools in handling and giving orders to our fleet and this new system will outshine MOO2.



JefAdd #26 Posted 04 March 2016 - 05:03 PM

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I am another MoO and MoO2 player and absolutely want turn based combat in.

 

Like many above i see combat as only a cutscene. might as well just pick simulate every time.. and thats a disapointment



CauldronBorn #27 Posted 04 March 2016 - 08:18 PM

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I stopped playing it mainly because this "combat" just plain sucks. You are better off with clicking "simulate". And what's the effect of this? More or less large parts of the game become meaningless:

"We researched Mass Drivers"

"Cool!"

"Shall we upgrade our blueprints?" -> one mouseclick. Done.

"Shall we upgrade our ships?" -> one mousecklick. Done. They don't even have to be refitted by your industry. Nope, insta-upgrade.

Next battle: ships fly towards each other, firing blue rays instead of red ones...(or whatever). Wow!

"We resarched new missiles!"

"Yeah, whatever". Cklick, cklick......

I installed Moo2 and the combat there is so much better. You can acually see/experience what your decisions for research and construction do. You can try different approaches (Missiles, boarding, etc..). Here it is either "whatch ships go boom" or "click simulate".

 

Lame. :-/


Edited by CauldronBorn, 04 March 2016 - 08:20 PM.


Idinyphe #28 Posted 04 March 2016 - 10:15 PM

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As I mentioned elsewhere I think the tactial combat doesen't need a lot of changes to get really good.

 

Suggestion:

 

If they add a button "follow ships" then the small fragile ships will stay  behind the heavy armoured ships.

A second button for heavy ships to stay flank left or flank right of another group.

 

There should not be anything automatically. So no autoattack, no autofollow, no auto special abilities. If the target moves out of range you should have to click it for a new command.

 

I want to say at the start where to move, where to shoot, when to use abilites.

 

There are only about 10 "units" on the screen as shipclasses count as "one unit". That should be easy to manage in real time.

 

If that is done the fight will not be very different from MOO1/2 as everything you did there was those few actions I have in this post...

 

* Move to position

* Attack enemy

* Follow other group of ships

* Flank other units

* Stay behind units

* Start special ability. (boarding is a "special ability")

 

I never did things that were more complicated than this.

 

Those changes are no big deal in my opinion. What do you think would that be a better fight?


Edited by Idinyphe, 04 March 2016 - 10:15 PM.


L4D15 #29 Posted 05 March 2016 - 12:26 PM

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I'm very dissapointed with the current combat system. As a fan of turn-based strategy games, I WANT turn-based mechanics. If I want real time battles I have plenty of other games that do them, but I play MOO for that complex turn-based combat system.

 

I beg the developers to implement the turn-based combat. They can go the route of simultaneos turns where each player give orders to the units and then all happen at the same time. That will speed up the combat (looks like a concern for the developers).



Argalos #30 Posted 07 March 2016 - 10:31 AM

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Hi,

 

just watched the developers diary regarding early access ...

 

There was mentioned that "a turn takes 10 to 30 seconds" and that tactical combat "took up to 15 minutes" when it was turn based and slows down the speed of the game....

 

Well guys, a game like Master of Orion is not intended to be speed rushed; it´s for complex strategic and tactical decisions which take some time of course. Of course the cinematic (that´s how I call the tactical mode at the moment) look great, but in my eyes this should only be an option for the gamers who really want them.

 

So here is my proposal:

 

- Make an option in the main menu (like you did for the pixel ships) where players can decide whether to have the cinematic "tactical" combat as it is now

 

OR

 

- to choose classic turn-based tactical combat

 

In this way the players could decide if they want to speed rush the game or take the full tactical advantage of this mode.

 

Just my 50 cents.

 

Best regards,

 

Daniel


Edited by Argalos, 07 March 2016 - 10:32 AM.


Boomer7 #31 Posted 07 March 2016 - 10:43 AM

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Personally I would not mind RT combat if it worked or were useful.

Currently to simulate it is the fastest way as you hardly ever use.

The starting ship is enough to kill the pirates, then just for fun build a few destroyers, but as soon as you can build cruisers you can roll over the whole galaxy with ease. The Titans are only needed to take out the Guardian.

 

Also have I overlooked it or is there no button to flee or disengage from combat?

Currently not really needed unless you want to test out if your ships are strong enough to take on the Guardian.



Idinyphe #32 Posted 07 March 2016 - 12:19 PM

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@Boomer7

 

 

 

 

The "disengage" Button was missed as I made a Doomstar with only "Mauler" Devices. The range of that thing is so short that the enemies could outmanouver it with ease. So a strange stalemate took place: the Doomstar could not reach the small ships and the small enemy ships could not destroy the shields of the Doomstar.


 

Three-fingered salute ended this game ;)


 

However: at the moment the fight is far from balanced, not even working! So I think it is too early say "you only need cruisers" :)


Edited by Idinyphe, 07 March 2016 - 12:19 PM.


Boomer7 #33 Posted 08 March 2016 - 02:25 PM

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I hope later on you will need a more balanced force and tactics to win the battle.

 

But right now its just build the biggest ship and watch the movie play.

 

Simultaneous turns would be great, that eliminates the issue that the person who has the first turn get an advantage as he can thin out the return fire.

 

That would be like it was on the Battletech Board game, everyone first moves, then declares fire, all units fire at the same time and damage and losses are only counted after the shooting is over.

 

So far I never reached the Doomstar, I won the game always before I got that far on the techtree.

My tactic was built 5-6 Titans kick the Guardians [edited], and then force all to vote for me. :)



miracleflame #34 Posted 09 March 2016 - 04:16 PM

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Didn't you figure out by now that this "remake" does not deserve to be considered a strategy anymore compared to the original? All the atmosphere, the music, the graphics, the childish voiceover. It is more like a Pixar movie for kids and the oversimplified mechanics of the game likewise. Someone probably missed the point of genius MMO2's magnificence completely when deciding to make a remake.

livelock_1 #35 Posted 10 March 2016 - 02:49 AM

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Imagine how cool this would be:

- Ships hiding behind asteroids for cover

- Ships hidding behind bigger ships for cover

- Ships jumping in/out of weapon range

- Ships chargin towards enemy, attracting missiles and bomber fire, then jumping away

- Ships staying within selected ranges, kiting around at missiles range or even bomber ranges

- Fleet flanking faster ships from 2 sides

- Ships kiting in and out of battle to recharge shields (smaller ships, bigger within limits)

or even

- Stealthed mines or weapons placed on backside of asteroids

 

and then... ships must be sturdier, battles should epic not boring.



d4rk3lf #36 Posted 10 March 2016 - 01:03 PM

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View Postmiracleflame, on 09 March 2016 - 04:16 PM, said:

Didn't you figure out by now that this "remake" does not deserve to be considered a strategy anymore compared to the original? All the atmosphere, the music, the graphics, the childish voiceover. It is more like a Pixar movie for kids and the oversimplified mechanics of the game likewise. Someone probably missed the point of genius MMO2's magnificence completely when deciding to make a remake.

 

 

I am all for: "make the pressure for development team, so they fix all mistakes, and make a great game", but this hate-ish attitude I really don't understand. 

What's so wrong with the graphics? 

It is very atmospheric, stylish, I really liked the cut scenes of colonizing planets, and also I like the diplomacy screens. 

 

I am a huge fan of MOO2, of course, but I don't see that MOO2 is any less "cartoonish" then this. 

I mean... look at the picture. Is this your vision of non styled, realistic approach? 

 



Idinyphe #37 Posted 10 March 2016 - 01:13 PM

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@darkelf

 

By the way... WHERE ARE THE ELIRIANS?


 

There is an actress speaking the role of the Elirian empress! It smells like DLC for money. I don't like that idea...


 

To the topic: of course you are right.



d4rk3lf #38 Posted 10 March 2016 - 01:18 PM

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I was just thinking about Elerians. You've read my mind man! :) 

 

Yeah, it would be great to include Elerians both for marketing stuff (lot's of hot chicks, and everything :) ), and both for strategic/balance stuff. 



_DanL_ #39 Posted 10 March 2016 - 01:41 PM

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I just signed up - my first post - I wouldn't normally do so, but I felt I had to as I just found out that turn-based combat is not in the game.

 

I am so very disappointed. 

 

As a 42 year old family guy, I don't get huge amounts of time for this sort of stuff, but I would have bought the game anyway even if it was only in support of the guys that were trying to bring back a classic (and maybe a few evenings a month for playing!!). I don't think that is realistic right now.

 

I'll keep monitoring in hope - just wanted to register that I for one completely agree with the sentiments of this topic. Developers, if you are reading this, please do account for the undercurrent fan base that could make a big difference to the sales #.

 

Sincerely, 

_DanL_



Adler_17 #40 Posted 12 March 2016 - 11:15 AM

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IMO the tactical fight is one of the most important things to change. Especially it is needed to have control over the ships. I'd love to control the ships in combat.




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